Well, we're in the midst of this furnace shopping ordeal. Not quite third world bartering, but I was surprised by the amount of sales tactics I had to endure today. It just leaves me feeling... BAD inside. Yet I know the salesman is just trying to do his job and is probably doing a really good job at it, actually. I'm sure his pitch allows a lot of customers to feel really good about spending a lot of money on his product, and he probably brings in really good revenues for his company. I, on the other hand, would rather buy the furnace on the internet in order to save $600, and then find someone qualified to install it for me. You think I'm joking, but I'm actually not.
I had the sheer stupidity to ask this salesperson (who I initially mistook for a furnace technician, or I might not have asked the question) how much it would cost just for installation if we purchased our own product. (Sigh.) I could immediately tell he did NOT like the idea and thought it was an utterly ridiculous suggestion. When he asked if I had the equipment there for him to see, and I told him we hadn't decided whether to order 80% or 95% efficiency yet, and that part of that depended on estimates we got for installation, he seized on what he perceived as my ineptitude, and proceeded to tell me how there was a LOT more to it than just efficiency and how a regular person couldn't possibly know how to choose a furnace for themselves because there are a lot of factors to consider etc. etc. He stopped long enough to ask how I was planning on choosing a furnace. I told him we'd gotten an estimate from another company first, and we were basing our size on what they recommended, plus on internet research I'd done to corroborate their recommendation. He went into his speech again about how furnaces aren't sized like they used to be, there are a lot more factors to consider, and how he is an expert at this and very good at what he does and he would be able to tell us the proper size and to make sure that nothing was off with any little part of it that could make the whole system not work as well.
See, what I do when people talk to me like this is I kind of freeze and open my eyes wide and nod attentively, and say, "oh!" and "uh-huh." I don't like to argue, so I don't tell him that I've spent the last couple of weeks perusing the HVAC forums online and reading articles, and that I know about the Manual J calcs and all the info that needs to go into them, i.e. insulation amounts, window sizes, roof material, siding material, as well as square feet. How I am perfectly aware the other company we got the quote from did not do a Manual J calc and instead based their recommendation on our square footage, as many HVAC contractors still do in order to save time, despite the industry agreeing the Manual J calc is the best way to size a system. I don't tell him that I know there is a lot more to choosing a furnace than simply choosing 80% or 90% efficiency, that I know we also have to choose the number of BTUs for the furnace and number of tons for the AC and whether to choose R22 or R410A refrigerant, and that I have already researched what the proper size is likely to be for our home online. Instead, I stand there and nod, probably giving the appearance that I am eagerly listening and amazed at what I'm being told.
After he finishes his spiel, he asks me what I want to do. I think, "Huh? I thought I already told you?" But I try to play along. "Well... Let's do this. I'd like to get a quote for what it would cost to install a system if we did purchase the equipment from your company." He's at my house already, and I figure it will be helpful to see a comparison to the other quote we had gotten. Maybe his would be lower or he would convince me for some other reason to go with his company and not order the equipment online. I am giving him a fair chance. Besides, I am truly interested in what the Manual J calc will turn out, if it will match the square footage estimate or not. I was too cheap to buy the $49 homeowners version to perform the calculation myself.
Right after I agreed to this, Heath walked in the door. Thank God! I had been thinking the whole time the man was speaking to me, "Heath, I told you I didn't want to tell the guy we wanted to buy the system online, but you told me he wouldn't be offended, that it's just business. Don't ever make me do this again!" I called Heath downstairs, and begged off that I had to finish cooking lunch. I could hear the man giving his spiel to Heath now.
Heath came upstairs after a little while and asked in a hushed voice, "How much did you say the system online cost?" I told him. "He said it would be ....!" And named an amount 2.5 times larger than ordering online and hiring the first company we'd contacted to do installation only. We sat and ate our lunch in uneasy silence until the salesman came up to ask us some more questions. He went outside to do some more calculations, and I told Heath he could not leave again until the salesman was gone. Finally, he came back in and sat down with us to explain what product he was going to recommend, although he did not have the estimate ready yet because he still had to put all the numbers into the Manual J calc program and see which size we would need. We would need to set up another meeting to discuss the actual estimate. He reiterated how important it was to have experts do the job and do it right, and how he was an expert and would make sure the job was done right, and how it was highly unlikely the quote would be any less than such-and-such amount. He said that if someone else gave us a quote as low as the amount Heath had mentioned that we should turn and run from them because they were going to do a poor job.
I knew we were in trouble when at the end of the presentation he complimented us on how he could tell we were really taking in everything he said and wanted to understand it (I'm telling you, it's the big doe eyes and the constant nodding and uh-huh-ing). How it wasn't our fault we didn't know these things (um, we actually did), and that if people would just take the time to explain it... (making a jab at the competitor). He also said, "Sounds good?" at the end of his presentation, like he was fairly sure we'd bought everything he'd said and were convinced. I finally gave my only indication of hesitation, saying "Well, we'll have to consider... " and trailing off impotently. Heath said something that sounded more confident but just as vague.
(Sigh again.)
We set up another meeting time to get the actual estimate. I told Heath that I'm trying to give the guy a fair chance still, and I will consider his product and the reasons he gave us for going with their (way) more expensive quote.
Plus, I want to see that Manual J calc before I order our system online, anyway.
It will be really funny if after all this work he comes back and recommends with his expert opinion that we get exactly what we are planning on ordering off of the Internet in our "ignorance".
ReplyDeleteReally this just makes me want to buy a new house, yeah the only thing wrong with ours maybe that the furnace fan is going bad, but I feel like it would be easier to just get a new house, or maybe just become renters and never have to deal with stuff like this.
I especially hate it when sales people say stuff like, "You wouldn't want to pay less for a furnace now only to regret it in the future, right?" Is that supposed to be rhetorical, b/c I treat it that way and don't say anything, except maybe "uh-huh", acknowledging the fact that I understood his question, but not dignifying it with a real answer.
Worse than that is when they use flattery, like "When I pulled up to your house, I said to myself, 'somebody must be doing something right, b/c this is a nice house'".
Yuck, I feel like I need a shower now.
times is tough, no doubt. i'm sure it brings out the best in all salesmen.
ReplyDeletedirect distribution is the death of all salemen who find themselves in the middle trying to make a profit; they've got to hang on to something like service or experience...it's all they've got. i wonder how much time he'd have taken if you'd called him a year ago.
we've done the new house thing...and we ended up with huge bills because our builder put a unit that was too small in just to get the cost down. Hope you guys figure it out. Things are just expensive and Ii haven't found any way around sinking money in to any house.
ps)my word verification is "twipsist". nice.
Melanie, I didn't remember that you guys had done the new house thing. I haven't heard anyone talk about their problems with a too small unit before; most of the stuff I read on the internet forums and articles was about how units are usually sized too large because people think they need the extra power, but then they have problems with them not working properly, cycling on and off too much, wearing out the motor too quickly because of that, using more energy than needed, and the AC being unable to reduce moisture well because of the short cycling. Too small a unit would certainly be a problem, too, though! Interesting that even a builder would make that mistake - you'd think he would be pretty experienced in what was needed. It's easy to think buying a new house would solve all our problems with an older house, but you remind me that I've heard a number of complaints from new home owners about repairs needed on their houses, too.
ReplyDeleteI usually can appreciate the value of experience and service, and there are some things that I would certainly want to pay more for because of that factor. I can appreciate the validity of the things he was saying, even if he was obviously making a sales pitch. But when paying for experience or service gets into the thousands of dollars more... yikes. I just can't justify it.
Heath, I didn't know he said those things to you; they weren't part of the spiel to me. Maybe those lines are more effective in wooing men rather than women.
Like you, I come from that family full of salesmen, which also makes me despise bad ones ... and adore good ones! You know we just went through replacing our heatpump here at Antietam (decisions made while we were in Kansas; many conversations from places where there happened to be a cellphone signal, like the cemetery!) ... say, are you getting a furnace or heatpump? If a heatpump, it's incredibly complicated both to size properly and to get installed properly, as you've discovered. You must get a good measure on your available ducting (and determine if it's sized appropriately ... any additions since house built?); otherwise you'll be dissatisfied, energy bills will be terribler [sic], and equipment will wear out much more quickly (in our case, there are several additions on the house and so our ducting was inadequate for a heatpump large enough to get a "comfort guarantee" on the installation ... and it would have cost as much to expand the ducting as to get the heatpump). Here's how we did it, and what happened: our heatpump was >25 yrs old, so (after doing "due-diligence research" on the web) I "naively" called a *wholesaler* in Maryland to see who might service that brand ... he said no one, so I asked who he considered to be a reliable contractor in our neighborhood to install a new one ... he thought and then gladly gave me one name, "very good" "honest" (BTW, if there had been someone to service the brand, I would have just asked who he recommended ... the trick here is that he's a seller to the people who want to sell to you, and he naturally wants to direct business to his favorites, and his favorites are his most reliable customers who don't hassle him, capiche?). I called the fellow he recommended and he seemed clearly competent and straight-forward and helpful and understanding ... he came out, did the measures, and said "this is what you want too buy and how much it will cost". I said thanks, got two more estimates (one higher one much lower), had several lengthy discussions with the guy about a bigger unit or more efficient unit, etc., put him through a wringer ... gave him every chance to charge us more, and he wouldn't budge, we went over all kinds of pricing options and he wouldn't budge (much). The other folks were lackadaisical or condescending, so this guy made a $8000 sale based exactly on what he'd said at first, including a duct cleaning (the cheaper guy seemed real sleazy and wasn't clear what brands he'd be installing, etc. ... FYI, almost all US heatpumps are made by three manufacturers, the rest is merely labeling ... ours is labeled "One Hour" and is made by Goodman and is the same as an Amana or Lennos if I recall). They came the next day (sympathy for Joy's elderly parents in late June heat), two guys worked hard for two days (what's that cost out at?), and they were just finishing up as Joy, the hound, and I pulled in after driving back from Kansas ... it looked as if nothing had happened (orderliness is a sign of a good contractor) and things worked great. He came back to check things last month as part of installation warranty, reprogrammed the thermostat so Joy's folks wouldn't keep turning on "emergency heat", and found evidence of a tiny leak although there had been no drop in system pressure in over the past 4 months; he worked and worked, alone, until past 8 on a Friday nite with his wife stuck at home with the new triplets, and left with no charge (would have probably been at least a $400 service call) and refusing to take a $20 tip. So yup, we paid more than rock-bottom cause of a good salesman, thank goodness, cause when you're buying something complicated and vulnerable, you can never have all the answers so a great deal depends on trust ... you're paying extra for the promise of service, and with a heatpump in particular it's very important that the installer is familiar with the particular systems they are installing cause there's a hundred things to go wrong and you want them to make it right, right? So, you might hate salespeople and you might want to save (a mere!) $600, but it might be the most penny-wise pound-foolish decision you could make IMO:) Whew! Oh, had the same sort of experience this morning with a roof window and a broken little latch ... her parents got Anderson windows 30 years ago, and this little replacement part cost $38.96! ... but the part was still available after 30 years and we don't have to replace a skylight window at who knows how many hundreds of dollars and potentials for leaks! So bottom line, find a tolerable saleperson selling a good product through a reputable firm, and trust them, because it's in their best interest to give you the best deal, always. Give a ring if you'd like specific input on getting a heatpump, or get an estimate from http://www.onehourheatandair.com - your uncle who's saddled with an old hodgepodge of a wonderful house, and getting ready to hang some insulation now!
ReplyDeleteAnd a PS: Remember, you're actually shopping for a salesperson as much as you're shopping for a furnace ... a salesman's satisfaction comes from having satisfied customers, and when you find the right one, it won't feel sleazy:) And finally, beware buying something like this on-line unless you have friends that know their HVAC (who?) and electricity (like Chad?!), cause you'll have to have a lot of trouble finding a competent *and* willing installer, cause probably half their profit comes from the sale of the units!!!
ReplyDeleteHmmm, interesting points. I didn't remember or know that you'd recently been through this yourself! We don't have a heat pump, just a regular (to me) split system furnace and AC (furnace and AC evaporator coil inside, AC condensing unit outside). The brand we had been looking at online was Goodman, which is now owned by Amana. It was the exact same model and size as in the first company's estimate. But you're right, the installation and pre-installation - making sure the ductwork and venting is proper - is very complicated, and I would never want to be responsible for that myself. I was just hoping we could find someone willing to let us pay them to do those parts without purchasing the system from them. Obviously, people do that, or these online companies wouldn't exist... But it just may not work out for us, if we can't find a competent contractor willing to do it. I did think the first company we called was reputable, despite the second salesman's telling us to "turn and run" from them. They are a big company with lots of years of experience, anyway.
ReplyDeleteI remember telling Heath it would save us $600 to buy it online, but now I have no idea where I got that number, because now when I do the math I find that it would cost $1100 less than our first estimate to order it online and have them install (they gave us an estimate for installation-only as well as the estimate to purchase it form them). The second person gave us a ball park figure (the one Heath and I were shocked about) that was $2400 more than our first estimate. We'll see his final quote on Tuesday. I need to get a third estimate, like everyone seems to recommend. Maybe it will be in the middle of the other two.
I think what you said about one of the salespeople you encountered being condescending is very true in our case as well. He was condescending to the max. He didn't even pause for us to ask a question, much less "grill" him, like you said you were able to do with the salesman you eventually chose. I think if I could do that and be satisfied with the answers I would probably choose that person. Especially at this point - I just want to get it done! Some mornings the noise from the blower sounds really bad, and I think it's going to suddenly quit on us and we'll be forced to decide quickly.